...There seems to be a M19/other 511 system madness going on right now on some of the other forums. I try to hold my tongue since everybody is having such a good time. I guess ya gotta start somewhere...
You may have wanted to consider continuing to hold your tongue as you seem to have no clue as to what you're talking about.
Originally Posted by Geekstar
Now the point has been made, and I think correctly, that the 511 based M19/Valencia/etc.....
I have trouble respecting the opinion of someone who repeatedly states in multiple posts that Model 19's use a 511 horn. I would never try to say that I think the 288 is inferior to a 902-8a or 802-8g. I will, however, state that the 288 is not necessarily better than the Model 19's h.f. driver for home hi fi use-- it is very much an apples and oranges comparison/personal preference matter as far as which is better for home hi fi use IMHO. The 288 has considerable strengths, but for one thing, the 288 rolls off at about 15k and does not have the h.f. extension that some of the smaller format h.f. drivers like the 902-8a have.
Originally Posted by Geekstar
In all honestly, I am no fan of 511s. I consider it a flawed product and it really doesn't bring out the best in those excellent 1" ALTEC drivers. They give me a headache.
OK, it seems like your beef with Model 19's is not the h.f. driver (which you call excellent), it's the 511 horn. Well, guess what, the Model 19 never used a 511 horn. Neither did the Valencia. Please try to at least have some kind of a clue as to what you're talking about before you denigrate an amazing home hi fi speaker system like the Model 19.
FWIW, I prefer my Model 19's over the 846A Valencias and AS 101's (similar to 846B's) that I used to own. I would not call them better, I prefer their extended bandwidth in both the high and low end over the Valencias. The Valencias are great sounding speakers and have their own unique strengths/charm. I'm guessing you are just trying to get a reaction out of people like me by going onto an Altec forum and denigrating Model 19's. If that makes you happy, go for it. And yes, you've succeeded. You got a reaction..... If you're not just trying to get a reaction and really don't like Model 19's because of their 511 horns, then I hope the parallel universe you live in where Model 19's use 511 horns is working out for you...
EDIT: By the way, I have owned 511 horns in the past and I like them--they never gave me a headache!
Last edited by voice of the theater; October 27th, 2012 at 09:02 PM.
I find it VERY interesting that the makers of these "SuperSpeakers" don't publish any frequency response measurement graphs, impedance plots, or polar plots.
If they do, I didn't see where they hid them.
I'd also like to see the transient response of them, compared to a properly designed/built/operating horn loaded system.
As for them being able to generate higher SPL's than a Model 19, I find that difficult to believe. It would be acoustically and physically impossible for something that small to generate REAL sound pressure levels that exceed a properly designed horn-loaded system, or even a Model 19.
As Alexis Badmaeiff wrote, when Edgar Villchur was touting the AR-1, "A Good BIG Speaker Is BETTER Than The BEST Little Speaker"....
Todd W. White, Owner & Webmaster
Altec Lansing's (unofficial) Homepage
OK, you are correct that I am smearing together 811s and 511s. MAYBE 811s are a little bit better but I never heard anything to convince myself of that. Some folks do argue that they are. I lump them together. Could be an error on some level.
I have and use 802s and I really like the drivers. I had M19s and Valencias in the 80s. The very first big Altecs I had were M19s in 1985. Sold them when I found a pair of Valencias for $200. By 1989, I switched to large format for the most part. At that point I had a 10x20' storage locker full of horns, drivers, cabinets and electronics. ALTEC horns were like popcorn. I had them stacked to the ceiling. ALTEC was "the workingmans revenge"--cheap, plentiful, and good. 288s were $75 all day long. People gave me horns and loaded VOT cabinets for hauling them away. I got to experiment quite a bit and pick and choose. Now it would cost a fortune.
Of course, I recognize that a lot of people sincerely like 19s and Valencias. That is my whole point. I'm seeing an explosion of "511 love" everywhere I look it seems.
I think they are getting in on the first step though and there is a lot to progress to beyond the sectorals. I don't dive in and say "hey those sectorals suck...get 288s and multicells or die." As a dyed in the wool ALTEC lover, I am glad to see people loving the M19s and small format VOTs.
Conversely, many people do not care for 811/511 sectorals and thereby declare "ALTEC" to be junk...or let's say colored and lacking finesse or subtlety. I agree with that assessment. There I point out that this is not really the best Altec has to offer.
Check out my 50 page battle on DiyA about this! I had lovers and haters piling on!
I KNOW there is a long way to go way BEYOND the 1" and cast aluminum sectoral level of performance with ALTEC. I know because I have done it a couple two three times.
Over the last six months, I tried various Emilar and Renkus horns (which I consider extensions of ALTEC) on my 802s and they are ALL better than 811/511. The 32B/C is also working out really well for my taste....smooth and open. There are a lot of 1" metal horns that are really good. I was listening to WE KS12025s two weeks ago and they are great. Good small format horns are totally possible.
However, those 511 type horns have a honky ring that I can't help keying in on and it drives me nuts...and not just me.
(note:I have not tried 511A)
I happen to be a huge Altec fan plus a vocal & public supporter of the mark for several decades, yet I really dislike 511s and 811s and do not think they are up to the general standard of much other Altec pro gear. I say the same thing to ALTEC fans and ALTEC haters, to silence the haters and hopefully inspire the fans to check out further options. Been saying it here for a while. Only reaction I am looking for is thought.
As for this forum, I was the very first poster on the Altec Users Board.
In this thread, we have a guy who like KRK monitors better than ALTECs. Well, that's cool. He is the one who gets to listen to his own system, so he gets to choose. There are a lot of speakers out there. My gut response...that is low end of the food chain ALTEC anyway. I can totally understand how some people might like a flat, well behaved monitor over Valencias. I even recommended one to check out, the fantastic KEF LS50.
We're all talking from our own experience and preferences. I believe that a well-tuned set of 1505s and 288s with 416s can stand up to anything around, except perhaps Mirrophonic M2 and maybe the same setup with Lansing 297 and 415 field coils, which I had.
I hear elaborate horn systems quite often in my travels, including very fancy, rare, and big stuff. Rarely do I hear something that I feel beats a properly put together 288 system for my tastes. I had one at home for 16 years. I was 100% happy with it. Didn't even think about replacing it.
Tried many differnt horns...TAD, Edgarhorns, blah blah blah, and I put the 1505s back up every time.
If I didn't do the work, then one could say I don't know what I'm talking about, but I gave the 811/511 sectorals my best shot many many times. I really wanted to like them because they are such trademark ALTEC units and I love ALTEC.
Forgive my candor but I call it like I hear it. 802s...excellent! 416s...great! 811/511...YUCK!
If you think I'm nuts, try a Renkus-Heinz exponential (even cheaper than 811 on ebay) and you tell me which is better.
And, then again, I could, of course, be totally wrong !! But I will always have ALTEC speakers of some type until my dying day.
Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must remain silent --Wittgenstein
I feel better now Joe, i was afraid to tell you that i've been using the 9846's as subwoofers only, with the 411's wired direct for over a year now.
And, i totally get the 32B horn love too, totally. I run 9849-8D's on a cheesy little T-amp. I reference them with Krell powered Westlakes in the same room. 9849 is a good little speaker, darn good.
Sorry some of the other fellas don't quite know who you are yet, but they'll catch on.
OK, you are correct that I am smearing together 811s and 511s. MAYBE 811s are a little bit better but I never heard anything to convince myself of that. Some folks do argue that they are. I lump them together. Could be an error on some level.......
However, those 511 type horns have a honky ring that I can't help keying in on and it drives me nuts...and not just me......
OK, at least I understand what you're saying now. I'm sorry but it seemed to me like I was dealing with someone who had no clue as to what a Model 19 was or what horn it used because you kept saying it has a 511. BTW, there are multiple effective ways to dampen that ring.
Originally Posted by Geekstar
Of course, I recognize that a lot of people sincerely like 19s and Valencias. That is my whole point. I'm seeing an explosion of "511 love" everywhere I look it seems.
OK, you mean 811 love, right? I wouldn't lump Valencias and 19's together. I've owned two pair of each (still own two pair of 19's) and they are very different sounding speakers. I'll grant you even though I consider the Valencias to be nice sounding speakers, they could arguably be called "entry level" horn loaded Altecs. On the other hand, I consider the Model 19's to be a masterpiece of audio engineering. Crystal clear, clean sound/great soundstage/extended bandwidth--deep thundering bass and nice sizzle to the highs/powerful enough to fill a relatively large home listening environment with ease.....
Originally Posted by Geekstar
Over the last six months, I tried various Emilar and Renkus horns (which I consider extensions of ALTEC) on my 802s and they are ALL better than 811/511. The 32B/C is also working out really well for my taste....smooth and open. There are a lot of 1" metal horns that are really good. I was listening to WE KS12025s two weeks ago and they are great. Good small format horns are totally possible.
OK, you like the 32B and you mention all these other horns but apparently don't even think the Mantaray is worth mentioning? I think the Mantaray is superior to the curved 32B design in many ways but I want to say that it's just an opinion--the 32B is a good horn.
Originally Posted by Geekstar
In this thread, we have a guy who like KRK monitors better than ALTECs. Well, that's cool. He is the one who gets to listen to his own system, so he gets to choose. There are a lot of speakers out there. My gut response...that is low end of the food chain ALTEC anyway. I can totally understand how some people might like a flat, well behaved monitor over Valencias.
OK, finally something we may not have to agree to disagree on. I would have trouble and wouldn't want to argue this point. Yes, the Valencias IMHO could be considered entry level horn loaded Altecs. I don't think many people would say they are Altecs best horn loaded home speakers. They have a noticeable rolled off response in the high and low end and I can also see how someone who owns a pair might hear a pair of monitors that are fairly flat from 40 to 20,000 hz and be impressed. Yes, maybe if this same person owned a pair of Model 14's, a pair of 19's, or a nice 288 based system, they wouldn't be so quick to jump the Altec ship. I think you make an important general point here. I really didn't want to get into a debate with this thread. As I've said, I think it's up to his personal preference what sounds best to him. I do think there may be something wrong with his Valencias if he says this pair of monitors with 8" woofers play louder than his Valencias. Plus, as Todd brought up, I wonder what the transient response of these little monitors is compared to a nice pair of horn loaded Altecs??
Originally Posted by Geekstar
As for this forum, I was the very first poster on the Altec Users Board......
And, then again, I could, of course, be totally wrong !! But I will always have ALTEC speakers of some type until my dying day.
OK, I need to show more respect to this forum's first poster. You obviously have a lot of experience and hopefully we can agree to disagree on matters of personal preference. I like your attitude. I will also always have Altecs until my dying day. I would still argue that for a home hi fi two way system, a 288 multicell setup isn't necessarily better than an 802-8g/811b or 902-8a/811b based two way system. That is very much an apples and oranges comparison. While the 288's have significant strengths/fantastic mids and great highs I personally would miss the high frequency extension for hi fi use (they roll off at 15k) unless you add a tweeter to the 288 to make it a 3 way system which makes it even more of an apples/oranges comparison to a Model 19. In smaller rooms, 288's with multicell horns and two 416's might be considered by some to be too much--I think that would be a better "long throw" system for a good sized room but that's my opinion and that's all it is..... I think for a relatively large space the system you've described earlier in this thread (two 416's, multicell horn, 288 driver) would KICK SOME SERIOUS ASS but I might add a tweeter to it if it was my home hi fi system. Of course, there are those that add tweeters to Model 19's, so to each his own.
I was the second poster, and I invented the internet........ok, those are both fibs.......
The Valencia is a bass reflex with a horn.
The M19 is a bass reflex with a horn.
It is a bigger reflex, has a better hf driver and a better crossover. With an M19 xover, and the 902-8A or 802-8G hf driver, the Valencia would be darn close. Later versions were equipped with the -8B woof.
No one ever sems to mention the similarities.
That said, I thank the OP for making more Altecs available to those who want them, and for starting what has become a very enlightening thread!
it seemed to me like I was dealing with someone who had no clue as to what a Model 19 was or what horn it used because you kept saying it has a 511.
Believe me I know. Like I said, I don't draw a huge line between the 811 and 511. I worked more with the 511 as a loose horn, 811s in packaged systems.
The ring/honk I object to is in the geometry, not the metal...although there is plenty of ring in the metal too. I tried everything to snuff it. Everybody I knew in the 80s was trying everything to make that horn better. We tried sand, clay, cutting the fins and inserting rubber strips, smoothing the inside of the throat, whatever. See how many are on ebay now? Back in 1988, 511s were almost littering the streets! Every vintage gear collector had a few pairs in the garage. I have owned dozens that somehow come home to live with me.
I might be imaging this but some of the happiest 511/811 guys appear to be using the smaller magnet 804 and 806 drivers...could there be something to this theory?
On the other hand, I consider the Model 19's to be a masterpiece of audio engineering.
They are not bad...better than most stuff before during and after their time (including Valencias). I would meet you halfway and call them "70s classics." Sorry, I'm a bit of a snob sometimes.
Western Electric 757A, Klangfilm Eurodyn, or Mirrophonic Model 2 are masterpieces...M19s are 70s classics.
I think a better horn in the 19s would really turn the corner on those things. Check out the wide open Renkus exponentials or the Emilar compound flare horns. Far more open and uncolored than an 811 to my ear. Super crystal clear.
I don't modify or booger up vintage gear anymore myself because I feel it should be kept original for people who appreciate it for what it is, but I think this experiment can be done in a non-destructive and reversible manner. I think some of these latter-day horns were even designed to fit ALTEC mounting cutouts, since Renkus was an ALTEC alumnus (and no doubt chasing some retrofit action).
you like the 32B and you mention all these other horns but apparently don't even think the Mantaray is worth mentioning?
Never tried the small Mantaray yself, only heard them in passing, hence I have no firm opinion. I do think it should be better than 811s though!
I've been on the 1" experiments for about 6-8 months. I want to do a smallish 12" + horn monitor in the spirit of the WE 757A or maybe the M15/9849. Digging the 32B horn a lot. It is very low key and has a presentation with a lot of character. I'm split on the metal vs plastic question, leaning metal, but still keeping my options open till I hear the final configuration.
Right now I'm listening to 755A and 756Bs. No room for big horns. I have had 288 systems in smallish rooms and it worked OK, but here I literally don't have the floorspace to put them in the house. The floorplan sucks for hifi. I was so disgusted I didn't even have a system set up for a few years.
As I've said, I think it's up to his personal preference what sounds best to him.
Totally. Obviously the OP likes and respects the ALTEC approach. I just don't think he got the best hit off the ALTEC pipe, so to speak, with Valencias.
This is the point I am trying to make.
For me, other people's systems are like their sexual activities...I'm cool with whatever you're into as long as I don't have to participate!
I actually think something like a Valencia is really hard to get 100% dialed in. Stock xovers don't sound that great, cabinet is boomy. I can see how a decent modern high-end speaker can be refreshing after a while living with a vintage piece for many listeners. Most vintage speakers have "faults," such as resonant cabs and various colorations, that can get to you after a while. Proper placement for a big box can be impossible.
I used the Hiraga EQ crossover with my 1505s and peaked up the HF a little bit more than he did. I tried many different tweeters including Ionovacs, Stage Accompany ribbons, all kinds of bullets and slots. Best match I found was a Gauss bullet, but two way with EQ beat out the added tweeters for coherency. The Stage Accompanys were fantastic too but I had them on loan for review and couldn't afford to keep them. I never missed the highest highs and probably can't even hear them now at age 52! Balance matters more than extension to me.
Where I think the 288s excel is the low end of the spectrum. I seem to get a more coherent match with the woofs with the large format than with 1" drivers and I really liked taking the xover down as low as the HF horn would allow. 416s start getting a bit scratchy at 1k+.
I don't think I have experienced the best I can get out of an 802 yet. This is my project for the coming year. 811/511 will not be on the menu, as I am sure you can believe after that rant!
Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must remain silent --Wittgenstein
Originally Posted by Geekstar
If you're not just trying to get a reaction and really don't like Model 19's because of their 511 horns, then I hope the parallel universe you live in where Model 19's use 511 horns is working out for you...
But I will always have ALTEC speakers of some type until my dying day.
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